"Anything Else Is Just Busy Work" — Dana Johnson on Strategy, Solidarity, and What Comes After
[00:00:00]
Dana Johnson: if you are not focused on democracy and holding the line there, anything else you're doing is just busy work.
Peter: So I would love to know how did you get, um, into this work?
Dana Johnson: Yeah. So I will say I don't think it was on purpose. I did not intentionally, uh, get into environmental justice. Uh, my background is in, uh, communication, so public relations, advertising, marketing. I spent about 15 years. At client service comms firms doing that kind of work. Um, and it was in the science space, so, uh, clients that were pharmaceutical companies, uh, working with the FDA to get drugs approved.
So a lot of my work was science communications. Um, and then I went to, um, another firm where I did home safety stuff. So it was about carbon monoxide safety, fire safety. And then I [00:01:00] ended up at a firm where I, um, uh, a lot of our work was probably in what was called diversity and inclusion at the time of multicultural marketing.
So it was helping like hotels connect with audiences, um, and working with Nielsen to get, um, people to participate in the census because so many decisions were based off of census data. And, um, yeah, decided that I was born in, born in Chicago. I'm a native Chicago. And, uh, moved to Washington DC for more of an operations job.
Actually, I was executive director of A-Y-M-C-A. It's the first YMCA opened in the United States for African Americans. Um, but there was a lot, it was a lot. It was the Anthony Bowen YMCA. And so it's like 30,000 square foot facility with like childcare. So we would have hundreds of kids and if the alarm went off in the middle of the [00:02:00] night, I was the person who had to get up and go figure out what was going on.
And so that wasn't really my jam. And si kind of, uh, fell into environmental and climate justice work because, um, I was looking for something to do and connected with a friend who had her own firm here in dc. And worked with Nielsen and she asked me to join her in some outreach to, uh, African American faith community and youth around climate justice.
And so that's how I ended up in it. A long story to get there.
Peter: Yeah, it's, it's really interesting you went from communications to leading large organizations and then
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: advocacy.
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: and now advising clients more broadly,
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: has that sort of journey and those lots of different roles, um, been helpful in [00:03:00] shaping your understanding of what drives change.
Dana Johnson: Yeah. So I think that the through line in all of the work was really to like, know your audience. Understand your audience. So if you're trying to get, um, you know, a groundswell of, of energy around the approval of a drug, for example, or people to adopt into making sure that they, you know, have up-to-date home safety equipment, um, or even to get a member of Congress to, um, to pass legislation that benefits your community.
It's really like being intimate with the audience and understanding what motivates them and really targeting, like your strategy and all the, the things that support it, um, in a meaningful way. So I, I felt like that part of like. Probably some of who I am, but also the training that came, [00:04:00] um, through academics and their work experience probably, um, made it easy for me to adapt that kind of thinking to whatever work I'm doing.
Peter: It's really amazing because
Dana Johnson: Yeah,
Peter: knowing your audience and how to talk to that audience and thinking in terms of audience, I mean, is particularly how so much politics works
Dana Johnson: yeah, yeah.
Peter: really. Audience is influence. It's so much about, um, that, so, um, but interesting learning that even starting before, you know, the social media and this highly
Dana Johnson: So,
Peter: communications environment, era.
Dana Johnson: Yeah. And it was way easier before I felt like, so one, we had a lot more media outlets to connect with and talk to. So it was, it was, it felt easier to get a story out, a more substantive story out, I think. And a lot [00:05:00] of the work was probably event driven. So you were actually in space with communities.
And I think right now we probably to your point, talk a lot more through, uh, social media and digital means, and we've lost a little bit of that intimacy that you have when you are connecting with someone one-on-one.
Peter: Yeah, the di it's
Dana Johnson: Yeah,
Peter: getting back to facilitating life in-person interactions. It
Dana Johnson: yeah, yeah.
Peter: right? Because
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: it's, uh, you get more out of when you're in the same room as somebody, but it's just so convenient to be able to zoom and not have to actually try to arrange to be in a particular place or get
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: your pajamas
Dana Johnson: Yeah,
Peter: pajama bottoms.
Um,
Dana Johnson: yeah.
Peter: it, it, I,
Dana Johnson: And I think,
Peter: of people working on, yeah, how do we, how do we start reconvening in real life?
Dana Johnson: yeah, how do we do that? Because I do think that social media creates probably a [00:06:00] false sense of intimacy. Like, I don't really know you, I know what I see in digital spaces, but I don't really get to know you in the way that I could if we were doing things together and in person. And so, um, but yeah, I think that speaks probably to larger society as well too.
I think we see a lot of, um, individualism, um, as opposed to collectivism. And I think that's probably some of the challenges that we are experiencing right now, um, in our country, around our democracy.
Peter: Uh, and social media is, um. It, it's responsible for, so it's such a mixed bag, right?
Dana Johnson: Yeah, yeah,
Peter: Like
Dana Johnson: yeah,
Peter: the, the promise of it seemed great 20 years ago, and now it's
Dana Johnson: yeah.
Peter: It's come at quite a cost of and, and people feeling disconnected and maybe not even knowing why, because
Dana Johnson: Right,
Peter: lots of, sort of some form of human contact.
[00:07:00] But,
Dana Johnson: right.
Peter: um, I see a lot of about its impact on in general, or, uh, particularly men.
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: have you observed, is it, is it affecting black communities in the same way or is it like different kind of experience? Um, uh, in terms of how social media affects relationships and how they're, they're thinking about the world around them.
Dana Johnson: Yeah. I, I, I wanna be careful 'cause I don't necessarily. Know or study the statistics around that. But I will say, like looking at my own social media, I was looking at my Instagram, um, this morning and it's, I'm in an echo chamber. People have my same politics, my same thoughts about, you know, women for example, and black women.
Um, the same sort of like things I like to do socially. So restaurants I wanna go [00:08:00] to, places I wanna travel to. I'm very much in the echo chamber. That reinforces what I think, um, about the world that I live in, um, what I think about myself. Um, and then also I wanna speak to that little part about, um. Uh, you know, how it can impact our, our emotions and, and how we feel and think about ourselves.
So, um, I've been trying to be a lot more consistent in my professional part of work, in my posting, and I notice that if I post something and I don't get what I think is meaningful response to it, like I don't have my, like, I don't have comments on it. It's like, do people not see this? Do they not see how amazing this is?
What is this? It's almost like some sort of validation for the work that I do and what I said, and I've been trying to be careful and really thinking about maybe I should cut the likes and the [00:09:00] comments off so that I'm not chasing that and focused on saying and doing things that are substantive on social media.
And so, um, I, I just think as human beings, it is probably impacting us in at first wave.
Peter: Yeah. Yeah. um, the desire, the dopamine hit from that instantaneous feedback of,
Dana Johnson: yes, yes.
Peter: it really is a mixed bag because on one hand it's, it's nice to know that people are responding or appreciated or sharing it. On the other hand, yeah, it can become such a focus and then depressing when you feel like, this, nobody, like, yeah,
Dana Johnson: Yeah. Nobody likes,
Peter: When things don't get the attention that you think it should get.
Dana Johnson: yeah, yeah,
Peter: Um, so one thing, um. Uh, well, got a lot of attention this week
Dana Johnson: yeah,
Peter: uh, just to make a hard turn, um, the administration's indictment of the Southern Poverty Law Center,
Dana Johnson: [00:10:00] yeah.
Peter: as I look at it, a very unsurprising extension of the war that this Trump regime has been waging
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: bipoc led organizations.
I mean,
Dana Johnson: Yeah,
Peter: people of color in general, um, environmental justice organizations, it, they've been stripping funding. They
Dana Johnson: yeah,
Peter: um, wielding the power of the federal government against these kinds of organizations. and I, I. What's your take on how is that affecting these communities to just, I mean, it it's our, a little bit like, I mean, I don't feel like
Dana Johnson: yeah,
Peter: after me, but, you
Dana Johnson: yeah.
Peter: community, certainly they don't like what we're up to.
But, um, it's hard to imagine what that must feel like when it's, there's so much surround sound of going after particular, uh, [00:11:00] people. And
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: that affect leaders in the movement? Um, and regular people in the movement?
Dana Johnson: Yeah, I think we are in an extremely tough time, and so as you mentioned, you and I work in the federal space, so we are up close and intimate with, you know, what we see happening with congressional Republicans in terms of going after community groups as well as this administration. And, um, I think one thing, it has certainly made it a lot more difficult to be able to engage and enroll community groups, uh, community-based organizations in, um, federal advocacy and federal work.
I think people are a lot more cautious, so they're. You know, sign in letters are one of those tried and true tools that we use at the federal level around issues where we wanna have Congress take a particular action. And people are a lot more [00:12:00] cautious about, um, signing on to things. People are a lot more cautious about coming to Washington, DC for, uh, lobby days.
Um, I think that people, uh, don't approach the, um, the executive branch of the government. Um, I, myself, um, in this, this new, since the inauguration, I have not engaged with any agencies, um, or departments because they don't feel like safe spaces. And if we still have people that we know in those places, you think a lot about how will my engagement.
Perhaps make that person vulnerable in their work. Um, and so I think it has, you know, caused us to really slow down and, um, be cautious in what we do. Um, I will say one benefit of it, um, that I think goes back to the, the conversation we were having around social media is [00:13:00] it is really required that we pick up the phone more and have conversations with each other.
So probably even a little less on Zoom, but actually making phone calls and talking to people and sending less emails. And so perhaps the positive part of this is that it is pushing us more toward, um, reigniting or redeveloping those one-on-one connections and relationships that we have with one another.
Um, and I think it probably is the last thing I'll say is, you know, and you may mention of this, um, the funding that was coming into. Organizations for work. And so you had EJ organizations, like I've talked to people in Louisiana and people in California who may have had like an EPA grant, for example, that dates back years way before we had the bipartisan infrastructure law and the Inflation Reduction Act.
And people saw those grants, [00:14:00] um, um, even be revoked in this, um, in this kind of process. And so I think it probably is impacting the financial stability of, um, the environmental justice movement. And so people are, are also, you know, holding that. How do they preserve the work that they're doing? How do they, um, preserve their teams?
You know, how do you ensure that people are able to be paid? And so, um, uh, it's an, it's an interesting moment, but you also, I think, see. Organizations. If you have environmental justice in your name, there's no way you can fly under the radar. And so I think some people are even, you know, digging in, in that regard because really, what, what do we have to lose?
Peter: Yeah.
Dana Johnson: So, yeah.
Peter: hard to change your name away from what your particular
Dana Johnson: Right.
Peter: is.
Dana Johnson: Yeah. Exactly.
Peter: I, I was struck, I was just, uh,
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: Votes Conference this weekend, and [00:15:00] one of the panels, ISA Osa was talking about absurd lengths to which the Trump regime has gone to target that they consider DEI and, uh,
Dana Johnson: Right,
Peter: read stories about, but including things like
Dana Johnson: right.
Peter: the area of health, like sickle cell anemia, which predominantly affects African
Dana Johnson: America. Yeah.
Peter: And, but they nixed the funding for that because it, it had that label attached to it,
Dana Johnson: yeah.
Peter: it's a real health thing,
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: a a health thing,
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: even though it's something that really affects people's health in a real
Dana Johnson: Yeah,
Peter: And
Dana Johnson: yeah.
Peter: just the, the, the, anyway, the blind senseless destruction that they're waging that. Is, um, yeah, it's challenging. And, and, um, one of the, I mean, challenging, at the very least,
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: um, has the broader NGO landscape [00:16:00] or, or community. I've been wondering, have other NGOs been showing up for and showing solidarity for organizations that are under this, this kind of pressure? Um, my hope is that there has been a reaction and that there is support in some forms, but I, I just don't know. And I, I,
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: I wore it particularly around actually when the Trump regime was first. funding. I don't recall seeing much from the, uh, the rest of the environmental community, for example, saying, know, pushing back and, but I don't know if I was fully aware. So, um, is that happening?
Dana Johnson: Yeah. So I have a, a couple of thoughts. Um, first about the point you made about like the revoking of, um, you know, uh, funding for sickle cell [00:17:00] anemia research. Um, we saw that kind of, um, I'm gonna call it perverse action, even in the first Trump administration with COVID-19, where, um, initially there seemed to be this, um, and this adminis that, um, administration wasn't the best.
But I think when it became clear that there was disproportionate, um, um, morbidity, morbidity and mortality rates in communities of color because of proximity to polluting facilities, we did see, you know, a. In the federal and the national response to COVID-19. And so the fact that this administration would pull back, um, valuable resources for research, treatment, even access to healthcare, um, is not surprising, but still disappointing.
So I, I will say that. And, um, in terms of like what the [00:18:00] landscape looks like in terms of, you know, national environmental organizations rallying around, um, uh, community-based organizations or EJ organizations, um, with me not be in an environmental justice organization, uh, I probably don't have the full, um, uh, scope or, uh, insight into what people are doing.
Peter: Sure.
Dana Johnson: Um, but I feel like as a whole, especially here in Washington, DC I think there was a wholesale kind of retreating and people sort of turning inward, organizationally, um, probably as a protective mechanism, but also as people tried to figure out. What they would, would do next. And um, I think that you do see some continued relationship and partnership on, um, [00:19:00] issues and probably if we moved down a, a couple of levels and organizations, so you have maybe like your mid-manager level staff continuing to engage with environmental justice communities, especially if that's where their work has been, um, centered for a while.
Um, I think you do see some of the larger organizations that have, um, a legal focus or a legal apparatus still partnering with organizations to file suits to push back on Trump administrative actions. Um, but I do, I do feel like there was a, a wholesale retreat within, um, the environmental movement in DC as people tried to just figure out how to protect themselves and the work that they were doing.
Yeah,
Peter: Yeah, that's I think the instinct to duck and cover when in this kind of situation is,
Dana Johnson: yeah,
Peter: I think. It's very understandable,
Dana Johnson: [00:20:00] yeah.
Peter: but also the right, it's just the wrong answer. I mean, the studies of authoritarianism make it very clear that it's actually really important for organizations to increase their connections with others and act in solidarity so that you're not letting a few get picked off early on.
Uh, but of course that is then exactly what happened.
Dana Johnson: Right.
Peter: um, I, I feel like the broader community missed, missed an opportunity to be there in solidarity. Um, uh, is,
Dana Johnson: But that also, not to, yeah, I don't wanna cut you off, but I feel like in larger society we miss the opportunity to be in solidarity with one another. So if you look at, you know, the administration focusing on the legal community, focusing on higher education, um, focused on international aid, we had the opportunity as a society [00:21:00] to, and that's what I meant about that focus on individualism.
I'm gonna save my individual firm, or I'm gonna save my individual academic institution or, you know, environmental organization, just insert the name as opposed to thinking about how we could all stand together and be a line of resistance. And so I think we missed the mark, um, in a large way across the board.
I even think I'm gonna add, um, the other branches of, of government. To that list as well. And so, um, I, we, we, we missed the mark. We missed the mark. I really feel like Congress, if you are not focused on democracy and holding the line there, anything else you're doing is just busy work. Your focus in the paint should be around how do we preserve the democracy?
How do we protect our citizens? How do we protect our environmental laws and [00:22:00] statues? You know, we can always make these things better, but we, we needed to have a line that we all stood at, um, holding hands and, you know, whatever. And I think we just miss that as a larger society.
Peter: And some of it I suspect, is we've never, we haven't really confronted this before in this way
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: um, in, uh, in the before times.
Dana Johnson: Yeah. Yeah.
Peter: There was some entity that usually would come in and be like, whoa, hey, this
Dana Johnson: Right,
Peter: That used to be
Dana Johnson: right.
Peter: or the courts
Dana Johnson: Or the court. Yeah, yeah,
Peter: that didn't happen this time and we're like looking around and going, holy crap.
The safety, the, the net or the is very thin. Or actually not, there's really not as much of it as we used to think there was.
Dana Johnson: yeah.
Peter: Um,
Dana Johnson: Yeah. I think that's fair. So I could be being hard on [00:23:00] us as a society. I do think that, that that's accurate. And we probably have had, um, well, I won't go back that far. I'll just go back to the past 50 years or so. We probably have had, you know, moments of where you, like you mentioned, we were able to sort of step in and say like foul pause on the play.
Um, but we, we've mostly had comfort. You know,
Peter: Yeah,
Dana Johnson: uh, in, in this country. And so, um, that mindset of like, oh, we'll just pivot this way, and then when things get better over here, we can all come back and, um, we'll see if we'll have the ability to do that. I, yeah.
Peter: was really intrigued by, um, I saw this on your LinkedIn page,
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: about. Um, convening people around a deep breath,
Dana Johnson: Yes.
Peter: which you described as a space to reflect on the live [00:24:00] realities of
Dana Johnson: Yeah,
Peter: in this
Dana Johnson: yeah, yeah,
Peter: and to make space to breathe and process and move forward.
Dana Johnson: yeah.
Peter: And I was just really curious about how that went. Um, in that
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: did you hear that stayed with you? Um, you, uh, uh, did it work? Do you feel like that, you know, who, who you brought together
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: was able to get some calmness
Dana Johnson: Yes.
Peter: raging outside and moving forward? So how, how, how did it go?
Dana Johnson: So it was really powerful. We had, um, a former, uh, staffer with U-S-A-I-D. Uh, we had a financial coach. We had a art, uh, artist, blue Murphy based in Baltimore, who, um, presents black children. She's a teacher, uh, by trade and presents black children as art through the [00:25:00] lens of like redlining. And we, we had a, a media person, um, Misha Green with the Washington Informer and the conversation.
That they had about this particular moment that we're in. So, you know, like 600,000 black women are no longer in the workforce, um, especially here in Washington. DCI have friends who were a part of the federal government and had been do. And so, um, as you mentioned earlier. Uh, the way that we fight authoritarianism and fascism is to not allow ourselves to be in isolation, but to be in community with one another.
And so that was the real goal. Um, and, um, I got to lead a breath work session and we had a workshop around emotional fluidity. Um, I think that goes probably back to that conversation we were having around, like, this is not a moment that we have been in, in [00:26:00] modern times. And so I think there was a, people went into fight or flight, like they were in, you know, go mode.
And so the, the goal was to like, sort of break that and have people really think about like what's next, but not be in the place of resilience. Because, you know, resilience to me is like a rubber band and you kind of snap back to where you were before,
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Dana Johnson: could we individually and collectively think about what's next?
Um, in a way that. Can be beneficial. And that is new even in the face of, you know, I'll say with all that we see going on, um, I grieve the, the safety and security that comes from the status quo. And so we aren't in the status quo anymore and probably won't be. And so, you know, how do we protect ourselves and manage ourselves in that kind of moment?
And so it was really like beautiful and [00:27:00] emotional and you could feel connection in that space. And that was my first test with a specific focus on black women. But I do think in the environmental movement, the environmental justice movement. Here in Washington, DC it's a lot of type A, it's a lot of pressure to get things done.
Um, the political cycle, you know, makes it truncated and so it's like full steam ahead sometimes without consideration of ourselves and of other people. And so I have a desire to bring this kind of practice into movement spaces. And so I hope I do get to expand on who, um, will pause and breathe. Yeah,
Peter: Well, I think we are as you. As you're saying, we are all under tremendous
Dana Johnson: yeah,
Peter: so much happening
Dana Johnson: yeah,
Peter: to deal with.
Dana Johnson: yeah,
Peter: um, will you say a little more about breath work [00:28:00] and
Dana Johnson: yeah.
Peter: is there an exercise we could do? 'cause I'm really curious
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: I, I've thought about this as well and, and I don't do enough either.
Dana Johnson: Yeah, so I think when we think about traditional, um, forms of like, not traditional, but when we think about like emotional and mental support, we pursue therapy, which I have done especially working in, um, like the past six or seven years in the environmental space where, you know, it can be exhausting to literally be trying to convince someone to recognize other people's humanity in how we, we make policy in this country.
And so all of that stress. In tension and trauma even gets stored in our bodies. And so we can talk through them and make tremendous results. But breath [00:29:00] is the one of the ways or somatic practices, so, so much is your body. So breath work is one of the ways that you can tap into your body to release some of those things that we're holding onto and to think about how you restore.
So what is it that I wanna think and feel? How do I wanna show up?
Peter: Hmm.
Dana Johnson: Um, and so breath work gives you an opportunity to do that. So yeah, like I store it here in my shoulders, like responsibility. I just carry it there. And sometimes I'm like this. And so I'll take time to just breathe and focus on my breath.
Because that gets me out of my head, right? I'm not rationalizing it, but I'm really focused on the activity that I'm doing and I'm trying to focus my attention on this shoulder and it gives me an opportunity to, to release, to calm down a little bit. [00:30:00] To let my shoulders, yeah, let my shoulders come down.
So, yeah, so the somatic practice that I engage in spends an equal amount of time in release. So it's trying to mimic that fight or flight feeling. And so it's like breathing in through your mouth and out through your mouth in a 360 circle for a specified amount of time. So you can do it like if you need something really quick, three minutes or 30 breaths, but then you spend an equal amount of time slowing your breathing down, telling your body that you are safe, that we are good.
We, we got little things we responsible for managing, but we are good. We're safe. And so it's like breathing in through your nose and slowly releasing out of your nose or your mouth Yeah. Like you're doing now. And it sort of brings us down. So it's like a continuous circle without stopping. So that's how you match the fight or flight feeling.
So it's [00:31:00] like,
Peter: Um, so keep it going. Don't have
Dana Johnson: keep it
Peter: in
Dana Johnson: don't.
Peter: or,
Dana Johnson: Right. And you'll get that high, that energy that put your body under stress, frankly, is what we're doing so that you can then do match it with You're safe. Peter. You're safe, Dana, you're good. And so, yeah.
Peter: I do find that I hold my breath when I feel stressed
Dana Johnson: Yes, yes. Or
Peter: isn't good.
Dana Johnson: it's not good. Or if, do you recognize, like sometimes just how shallow your breath are, your breaths are, like, you aren't really breathing as deeply as you can. And you'll notice if you do that kind of somatic breath work exercise and you feel your chest expand and your belly expand and you pushing that air out, allowing new air to come into your lungs, you'll see just how, um, [00:32:00] how much we hold and how shallow our breathing is.
Yeah,
Peter: um, I guess I've been doing a form of breath. What I've found is really helpful for me
Dana Johnson: yeah,
Peter: to sleep.
Dana Johnson: yeah.
Peter: That sort of gets the racing thoughts under control is to just think the word in when I'm breathing in and
Dana Johnson: Yes.
Peter: when I'm breathing out. And
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: I can keep saying that to myself.
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: relaxing and it it, for some reason, it, it does. I don't know, I guess maybe that's me, but like that's enough brain power that I can't think about anything else and
Dana Johnson: Yes.
Peter: Or if I wake up in the middle of the night, how I help go back to sleep and um, I
Dana Johnson: 'cause you're disrupting the ruminations. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just take like five minutes. Sometimes if I'm like, oh, the to-do list is crazy, I'll just, you know, pop in a [00:33:00] song that relaxes me and breathe and get to it. Yeah.
Peter: So I was also thinking about. Um, the, the stress and the trauma
Dana Johnson: Mm-hmm.
Peter: um, many people feel, black women,
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: uh, just given all that's going on and also this sort of funny dichotomy, which is, when have to put so much effort into being recognized and accounted for and,
Dana Johnson: Mm-hmm.
Peter: counted at the
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: black women voters have been the most stalwart supporters of democratic candidates for decades, and
Dana Johnson: Yeah,
Peter: election, as
Dana Johnson: I,
Peter: of other groups sort of drifted off and decided to try out Donald Trump.
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: and I'm just curious, [00:34:00] um, why, why that? Because even black men, there was some. Shifting in support.
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: so, um, I think I've heard like, hey, you know, um, although, uh, now I can't think of the phrase, uh, forget it. Um, but how do you think about this dynamic? It, it seems to be like the rest of us are going like, yeah, we really, really need you for this vote.
And then after that, you know, we sort of
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: ignore and don't do anything to help, which I, I imagine that's incredibly frustrating among other things.
Dana Johnson: Yeah. So I think about the role of, um, African American men and women in this country and the, all of the work that went into having this nation live up to its ideals, right? So, um, [00:35:00] to see the happiness, the, um, and I'm drawing a blank on all of of the ideals right now, but I think there is something instinctive and innate about.
The desire for America to really be a democracy. I think it is, um, probably some sort of, uh, care element or protection element, right? Like to fight for those who can't fight for themselves to, uh, be able to live full and meaningful lives. And then when I, I think about myself, I vote sometimes and feel very taken advantage of, um, as a voter, you know, in this country.
And I know what would happen if I didn't vote. Um, so what we see happening [00:36:00] right now, and frankly, um, I don't wanna be a contributor to that, but I also, um, there is like a, uh, an obligation or a duty or a responsibility. For me that is honoring like my elders and my ancestors. So I, I grew up in Chicago in a building that my family was in.
My great-grandmother was still living, she was born in 1899, so she was in her seventies when I was born. And so you, you know, hear stories about her having siblings who were enslaved, um, and, you know, leaving the south and coming to Chicago and building a life and having children who were born in the twenties, you know, right around the depression and my mother being a teenager when the Civil Rights Act was passed.
And so I, I see history through the women in my family and just [00:37:00] feel obligated to, uh, honor that history and. It's something about, I think black women that who we want to see everybody get to live, you get to live in peace. You get to live in safety, you get to live without fear and fully and um, I don't know if that will ever change as a voting block,
Peter: like reasonable goals.
Dana Johnson: reasonable goals, but I do think, um, and you see people trying to do this like win with black women and other entities that, that are thinking about an agenda.
Like what do we get for our vote? What do we get for showing up? Um, I think we need to start holding, um, our representatives at all levels of government accountable to us as, you know, people who, who show up and wanna see this country be better. Yeah.
Peter: And I, I, it feels like we [00:38:00] still have a lot of obstacles in the way of doing that. Um, there's a lot of anxiety about whether we'll actually have free and
Dana Johnson: It's better. Yeah.
Peter: fall, particularly as, you know, um, uh, Trump poorly is reading the writing on the wall,
Dana Johnson: Right, right,
Peter: his party into a disaster.
Dana Johnson: right.
Peter: Um, and I, you know, we could speculate about all the different ways, and I, I've certainly written about it, I'm sure you have,
Dana Johnson: Yeah,
Peter: that they could try to, um, uh, uh, twist and contort the elections or results
Dana Johnson: yeah,
Peter: it's still Republicans in charge of the two chambers that actually have to seat the people who get elected. Um, and then we've got. Save Act and even concerns that the Supreme Court may finish tearing the Voting Rights Act apart.
Dana Johnson: right.
Peter: which I guess, um, [00:39:00] I actually don't know what my question is 'cause it was gonna be, are you worried about what's ahead? But it seems like an idiotic thing to ask.
Dana Johnson: I know, but I think I feel moments of worry. So I'll say in the beginning of this administration, I was full of angst and anxiety and felt powerless. And right now I think I'm in a neutral space. Um, and I'm probably feeling like, I think I can use Virginia as an example with the ballot measure to redistrict, you know, in the middle of a, a district team term, and there were two members of the state legislature.
Who really like pushed for a new map, right? [00:40:00] Really pushed for that ballot measure. And I think if we see, or if I see that kind of energy and effort at every level of government, even if we lose, I felt better about a fight that we actually got in right? As opposed to just surrendering. Um, it's what I love about what we saw in Minneapolis is what, um, native Chicagoan is what I love.
Um, when I see mayor, uh, Johnson and the governor, you know, pushing back, I think if I see moments of that, um, or efforts in that way across this country to really push back, um, can we beat cheaters? You know, I don't know, but we should at least be in the game.
Peter: Yeah.
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: to, I think.
Dana Johnson: We, yeah,
Peter: we really have to.
Dana Johnson: we don't have a choice. Yeah,
Peter: but I also, [00:41:00] yeah, the worst times. Give rise to moments of real grace and
Dana Johnson: yeah, yeah.
Peter: and actions that we can look up to.
Dana Johnson: yeah.
Peter: I think, uh, the neapolitans, um, like lit the way for many of us in how fiercely they resisted
Dana Johnson: Yes.
Peter: ice. I recently, I don't remember if it was on a podcast or read about one of the reasons that were so organized and able to, you know, deploy themselves and they had communication systems set up was
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: um, in the wake of the murder of George Floyd, so many people in Minneapolis came together
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: for protests and they started to develop these networks
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: connections and
Dana Johnson: Yes, yes,
Peter: Literally became infrastructure
Dana Johnson: [00:42:00] yes.
Peter: a tremendous difference, um, uh, this, uh, uh, when, when, when ICE came to town.
Dana Johnson: Yeah,
Peter: and so, yeah, it's sort of like the breathing exercise. It's important to take those kinds of moments of
Dana Johnson: yeah, yeah.
Peter: and try to ingest, you know, breathe them in as well.
Dana Johnson: Breathe them in. And I also think for as much as we wanna have immediate relief, we probably won't. And so it does give us time to build those kinds of infrastructures across the country. And you know, we get to look at, even like Hungary for example, what we saw happen with that election where people decided like, enough is enough.
And so if we have that infrastructure in place, we. Build that groundswell of energy that we need to really, um, have the kind of democracy that [00:43:00] includes everyone. I mean, that's what America was, right? Wasn't it? Well, in theory it was,
Peter: At times.
Dana Johnson: at times, right? A um, a place where everyone, um, could come or could be and create a life, um, a meaningful life for themselves.
And we've, we've had a ugly, ugly moments along the way, but I think as a, a country, we were most poised to do that. And I, I still think we are. Um, for as much as there seems to be roadblocks being set up to it, uh, it'll be difficult to stop this country from being a multiracial democracy. It just. It just will and so we can move into it together or you know, [00:44:00] what we see now this tug of war for
Peter: Yeah.
Dana Johnson: what was, and I think in some ways the fantasy of what was as opposed to all that we can be.
Let's choose all that we can be.
Peter: Yeah.
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: Um, one of several months ago, um, one of the strategy documents for a campaign that you wrote came to me, I don't even remember. I. What it was. But what I do remember was thinking, holy crap, like this is so well thought out, excuse me, in like brilliant campaign strategist
Dana Johnson: Oh, what did I write? I don't even remember.
Peter: I tried to find it, but
Dana Johnson: Okay.
Peter: my organization now has a 90 day retention policy. So anything that I
Dana Johnson: Okay.
Peter: to mark early on is gone. So [00:45:00] I couldn't tell you. Um, but what I wanted to just ask is how, how do you approach designing campaigns? Like do you have a process? 'cause that's of course one of the, one of the points of the podcast is to share, Hey, how do different people go about doing this?
So I just wanted to hear how do you tackle it when you know a client or an organization comes to you and says, we need, we want to get to this help.
Dana Johnson: Yeah. Oh, that's a really great question. And I think a part of that is probably something that's like innate, but I do try to, um, I think go back to what I said at the start of the podcast, like what's the real, what's the big sky objective here? And then I probably come down the layer and I think about like, how do I get to that?
And there are oftentimes like multiple strategies for doing that. And I try to think about like the audiences like to power map toward [00:46:00] who, who's primary in this strategy. And um, if we say all of them, then, then I'm going down another layer and I'm thinking about the tactics related to it. Um, or maybe I'm even pairing it down.
I will say I do have difficulty pairing things down 'cause I could just see it all and I wanna do it all. Um, but I'm usually best served by somebody outside of me saying, we, we need to pare this down. So being in connection and relationship with other people can be really, really important for me in that regard.
Um, and. Then I start to think about like the vehicles for how do we get there and who's the best messenger? Am I the best messenger? So then I'm probably gonna talk to people and I'm probably starting to early sale. So I'm trying to enroll other people in like this vision and take taking [00:47:00] into account what people are saying back to me.
So, um, they're probably either co-signing it, like, yes, go forth and be great. Or people are like, Hey, maybe you need to think about this. Um, and then that part about enrolling other people is important because I probably, another area is I like to do it. I'm gonna get in there and do it, but I'm probably in some instances not the best person to do it.
Peter: Yeah.
Dana Johnson: And so, um, it's trying to bring people into the vision and, um, I'm probably also thinking about how do I approach this in a way that other people aren't? So like, what's the gap? In this space. And so when I was at, we act and we were, uh, we act for environmental justice and we were talking about the models, for example, related to the inflation reduction Act and the greenhouse gas emission, the carbon emission reductions.
And I kept feeling like this is such an [00:48:00] incomplete conversation. Like the gap that we need is how do we go down level? So how do we look at regions? Can we look at states, can we look at communities? And so it was like we need a researcher on our team. So we ended up hiring someone, um, who could have that like peer-to-peer conversation with other researchers.
And I could say something in the most eloquent, uh, in eloquent way that I would say it and have them translate it so that we could, um. You know, so that we can start looking at like, other criteria, pollutants, and how do we think about the, the cumulative impact of being exposed to pollution or the, the cumulative effect of a particular policy pathway.
And so, yeah, uh, I'm probably trying to think about what's missing from this conversation. Who's missing, and how can we get them in there? So that's probably my process. It's gonna go like this
Peter: Yeah, [00:49:00] because if you
Dana Johnson: and then like this. Yeah. So it's like it's hierarchy this way and then it's gonna go this way. Mm-hmm.
Peter: So if Democrats take back the house or the whole of Congress,
Dana Johnson: Mm.
Peter: what would your, what would your campaign plan be for, um, should, um, what should the environmental justice and environmental communities. Try to prioritize or get them to prioritize what? What do we need to start working on?
Dana Johnson: Yeah. So there are a couple of things that have been coming up for me. I feel like, um, especially last year, just pockets of people everywhere. Um, thinking about how do you rebuild an agency, for example, how do we restore the implementation of a particular policy? And what was always missing again, like that gap, [00:50:00] I didn't see community-based constellations of, um, in those conversations.
And so the people who,
Peter: that?
Dana Johnson: I mean the people who are most close to the work that an EPA does, for example, where was the environmental justice? And maybe it happened and I don't know about it. That could be, but was there, or do we need to have the environmental justice constellation of folks
Peter: Got it.
Dana Johnson: thinking about a policy.
So, you know, and how did it work? Um, and how would we change the way it works? And that's probably kind of late work. But I do think making sure people are in a space, thinking about policies and thinking about agencies, um, is really important. Um, wow. And you have me thinking about a campaign. Here's what I'm also gonna say, and I might be rambling a little bit, [00:51:00] but, um, I have really been sitting with like our environmental laws.
And I remember when I first came into the work, Monique Harden was with the Deep South Center for Environmental Justice and called me and was like, are you sitting down somewhere? 'cause I need to talk to you. And I'm like, oh my God, what's going on? And she was like, I want you to really understand how the Clean Air Act works.
Like it's built on a premise of harm and these are the ways that it harms people. Um, this is what a lack of enforcement looks like and just gave me a breakdown. And so I think that kind of work to think about how do we rebuild, uh, would be the place that I would start. And I think sort of visioning where, what does ideal society look like and how would you rebuild like federal [00:52:00] infrastructure to meet that ideal society?
So not, maybe we don't even build the EPA the way it was before, and like, who do we need and what are the accountabilities that we can build into those processes? And then we, you know, start working with Congress to figure out how do we, um,
craft our laws. To meet, to meet, to meet the next 50 years. That's what I would start. And you know, that work could, could very well be being done already. I know there were the, um, I don't know if you were familiar with the work that the, um, former people who were a part of the White House Environmental Justice Advisory Council have been doing, traveling around the country and convening conversations with communities.
Um, and so I think some of that is that visioning work.
Peter: good.
Dana Johnson: Um, but uh, yeah, [00:53:00] I've been thinking about how you take that vision and develop it for the next 50 years. Operationalize it, I think is what I'm getting to is where I would start and yeah, as I say it, yeah, but doesn't it feel like it's too late?
Like, we should be doing it already so that as soon as the
Peter: Well,
Dana Johnson: switch flips, we're like, here,
Peter: right?
Dana Johnson: what we want.
Peter: So I'm glad that you just said, um, the, uh, uh, the members of the advisory group have already started going around, uh, uh, just for a moment. Um, we were scheduled to go to three. We're at three. Do you have a hard stop? Do you have a couple
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: Because
Dana Johnson: I got time. Mm-hmm.
Peter: Um, you mentioned one of the challenges that I think is really, really interesting
Dana Johnson: Mm-hmm.
Peter: it it's a big It is.
Yeah. What comes after Trump? do we. I'm trying to think about how to phrase it. How do we get back to [00:54:00] a, uh, set of laws and, um, uh, entities that can enforce those laws that protect people's
Dana Johnson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Peter: environmental threats and harms? And I think that's a big question. Can we rebuild what we had or do we need to build something new?
And, uh, uh, feeling, and I, I've talked to a lot of people who, e echo or have the same view is, you know, what we had was okay, but it was also part of what got us to this point because it failed, it still failed a lot of people in a lot of ways. And so should think more forward-looking about what's, yeah, what is next, what is the shape of things to come, which I, I think is a really. Fascinating It's, it's sort of like, how do you grow something from the ashes?
Dana Johnson: right.
Peter: and can you make it more powerful and more effective, um, and, and meet the needs, uh, better than what was there before.[00:55:00]
Dana Johnson: Yeah.
Peter: but I'm not aware of how much of is happening, so that's why I was encouraged by least the, the example you offered.
Dana Johnson: Yeah. I, I think people are. Thinking about it, but to your point, I do wonder how much of it is thinking about it in the previous context and how do we adopt or adapt, uh, ideas that people have to fit into the previous construct. And I think we probably as a nation, wow, the next set of leaders will be so important because we probably will have to have a both and strategy.
So we'll have to maybe leverage previous frameworks and rules while we also work to build and to create something new. And I do think [00:56:00] historically industry probably has been prioritized in. How we think about this, how we think about laws and their applications, and who we consider experts. And I think even how we think about the work, think about us in DC a lot right now about that.
We, you know, how would we,
Peter: You broke up a little bit there. Would
Dana Johnson: oh,
Peter: mind saying that again?
Dana Johnson: um, can you, you hear me okay now?
Peter: Yeah. It's back now.
Dana Johnson: So yeah, I'm thinking a lot about, um, us in Washington, DC and how we think about this work because I do think sometimes it is an intellectual exercise, right? Like, it's like theory that doesn't always have the benefit of practice in real life and community.
And I think that's part of the work too, to [00:57:00] sort of like, how can we flip that? Um. That, that approach to how we rebuild the country. Yeah.
Peter: So, um, what gives you hope? Is it the future or how do you create hope
Dana Johnson: Mm-hmm.
Peter: it thinking about that opportunity to, you know, how do we rebuild, or, um, where does it come from for you?
Dana Johnson: Um, I think right now it's probably coming from people like really not being in isolation,
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Dana Johnson: like even this conversation has me like, I'm like, oh, how would I rebuild? Like it's, um, it's energizing me. And so I do think being in connection with people, um, really means a lot. And then seeing people like rally around one another and be in community with one another is really giving me a lot of hope right now.[00:58:00]
Like we are all just. You know, buying a bunch of toilet paper and filling up our freezers and just waiting for the, waiting for the, whatever the end is. Like, you know, we, we still trying to live and try moving back toward connection and, um, yeah, that's, that's driving me, I will say, I'm gonna go back to it.
I think for as painful as this past year and a half or so has been, um, I do think the benefit of it is it is pushing us all toward one another in some meaningful ways.
Peter: Yeah.
Dana Johnson: Yeah,
Peter: that's right.
Dana Johnson: yeah,
Peter: acts of love and humanity and compassion
Dana Johnson: yeah. Yes,
Peter: really stand out
Dana Johnson: Mm-hmm.
Peter: and, it gets us thinking more about those, the importance of that in these kinds of times.
Dana Johnson: Right. [00:59:00] I agree.
Peter: so, um, what's some advice that you'd like to pass on to young people or people early in their careers who are thinking about, Hey, what can I do to shape the world around me?
Dana Johnson: So I think that, um, you can come from a variety of backgrounds and interests and academic pursuits and contribute to something great. Um, I think. Again, I'm speaking through the lens of being in Washington, DC like right. We have a lot of environmental health and environmental science and, uh, legal experts.
But if you are an artist or you know, someone who is interested in finance, if you are a teacher, like they're so, so [01:00:00] many ways to get at, um, the kind of society that we want to see. Um, I, I want people of all kinds of backgrounds to be, uh, contributing their, their thinking and their expertise and their ideas, their creativity to whatever it is that we create next.
So that'd be my first piece of advice. The, the table is open and set and everybody come and, and have a seat. The second is around like, how do we care? For ourselves.
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Dana Johnson: I do think being in balance is important because this is the long haul. And, um, so taking those moments to breathe, I'm always gonna come back to the breath.
Taking those moments to go outside for a walk, um, feeding ourselves well, however you define that. I think those things are really important. And then the final thing we talked [01:01:00] about a lot is being in community. So be sure that you don't do this in, in isolation.
Peter: It's great. I love it.
Dana Johnson: Thanks.
Peter: Dana, thank you so much. This has been so, so fun. Lovely conversation to have with you.
Dana Johnson: I know. I was just thinking this was lovely. So thank you for inviting me.
